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Attachments: Company Formation for the purpose of Trading (CFDs, spot etc)
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Company Formation for the purpose of Trading (CFDs, spot etc)

  • Post #1
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  • First Post: Oct 8, 2019 2:57pm Oct 8, 2019 2:57pm
IMPORTANT: I think this THREAD should be linked to all the sister forums: metalsmine, forexfactory, cryptocraft... since I believe it to be a general issue... Of course it might be much more important for energymarkets, because of the CO2 CFDs in particular, but still.... Trading over company is a general subject when one is trading, even if for himself, prop...

It recently came to my attention that US citizens can not trade CFDs which I think is a miss of many opportunities... We started to discuss on the issue in this thread about CO2 trading... which is a shame that so many of you miss this rather good market, I believe...

CFD restrictions for US citizens:
https://www.contracts-for-difference...trictions.html

CO2 CFDs example:
At least one good market that people are missing that seems to be CFD (only?) atm, no spot atm...
2good brokers that I have found...
https://www.plus500.com/Instruments/...rchTerm=carbon
https://www.ig.com/en/commodities/ma...rbon-emissions
Historic data...
https://www.investing.com/commoditie...istorical-data
Just played a little and made 50%+ And it seemed I pull-ed out much sooner! The predicted trend went much more in the predicted direction... Would have made a lot...

I would like to know if there is any restriction for US citizen to form a company in some country that does allow CFD trading?
I mean, my reasoning would be simple.. First find the edge/juice, CO2 for example might provide wonderful opportunities... And if you do!
Form a company in EU for example... and TRADE.. It seemed to be very cheap, fast, easy... in some countries... Therefore you would have access to CFD market that many are restricted from, sadly... Hope my assumption is correct?

If so, please share some cheap/legal/effective company formation for the purpose of (online) trading (of CFDs for example) or whatever...

I myself am looking for forming a company in US for some time, for some market(s) it would provide some EDGE, but not at the moment... Currently we are much better at accessing some markets from EU.. Although they put the LEVERAGE limit to us but at least we can (still) open trading accounts with brokers that do provide higher leverage (in Bahamas for example...)...

Also, do some know what are the benefits of trading over company (even for non-US citizens that can already trade CFDs)? Well, tax would be the leading one, second or even FIRST (depending on the markets) would be ACCESS to some markets.... Some brokers accept only companies or are much more helpful etc... You are taking much more serious... Yeah there is a legal exposure limit but that does not seems to be an issue if one is just online trading without customers, contracts etc... But still.. Should one be trading without guaranteed stop loss, I believe having the legal barrier from personal assets would certainly help I can not reveal all the ADVANTAGES so that they would STAY that way.. But I think you got the general idea...

So, the current focus of discussion could be... for US citizens... would they be allowed to trade CFDs... over company? If so, what would be cheapest/easiest options for them? I would think (language, reliability), maybe incorporate in UK or somewhere in EU or even offshore, if it is legal for them? I believe some would benefit much... Just check my CO2 CFD trades/predictions... That alone would return the "investment" or expenses for the company formation...
Can you afford to take that chance?
I mean it would seem like a no-brainer... for ACCESS to MARKET(s) alone.. not to mention TAX cuts... (depends where you are from)..., personal asset protection in case you DROP below the balance... in case of no neg. balance protection or whatever reason... might come into argument with the broker...

And also, unless you are a millionaire already or do not care about what people think of you... people perceive trading MUCH better if it is via company...
IMAGE etc Private trading (without being) rich has a bad rep... since "everyone" is trading... so all are thrown in one basket... Ok just saying..
Just a brainstorm...

The purpose of this thread would be WHY and/or HOW to set it up.... for whatever reason/purpose... But legal of course...

I have found some good clips/services.. depend on where one would like to formate, but do not like to promote... So would wait for others to post something first... and then post myself of the ones I think are good... if that would be needed...
Can you afford to take that chance?
Which brokers allow for corporate accounts? I checked a few and they only allowed for personal accounts.
Self-sufficiency is the greatest of all wealth. - Epicurus
Quoting Ef5
Which brokers allow for corporate accounts? I checked a few and they only allowed for personal accounts.
Well haven't checked for details of combination of corporate+CFD+CO2+IG but it seems they do offer corporate account https://www.ig.com/sg/professional-corporate-trader

For plus500 it seems to be the case as you say.. https://www.plus500.com/FAQ/OpeningA...ompanyAccounts

For CFDs (haven't check if those below also provide CO2)... and if CFD+corporate account is possible... but to get some idea..

Are you looking for corporate account+CFD or corporate account+CFD+CO2 in particular? Would check with IG... and also google by keywords.. or check the list of reliable (CFD) brokers and ask them by webchat....

Oanda also have corporate trading account... "corporation or entity"... https://fxtrade.oanda.com/your_accou.../register/gate
Oanda also offers CFDs https://www1.oanda.com/forex-trading...dities-trading

Haven't checked if corporate account+CFD etc.. is possible... but if any of you would be interested, could be easily asked/checked/tested...

So the more specific you want to be, the more precise we can check.. but I am already almost sure that CFD+corporate account is possible... for US citizens also since they can formate a company or incorporate in some country and then open corporate trading account to trade CFDs... if I'm not mistaken...
Can you afford to take that chance?
Quoting auricforecas
{quote} Well haven't checked for details of combination of corporate+CFD+CO2+IG but it seems they do offer corporate account https://www.ig.com/sg/professional-corporate-trader For plus500 it seems to be the case as you say.. https://www.plus500.com/FAQ/OpeningA...ompanyAccounts For CFDs (haven't check if those below also provide CO2)... and if CFD+corporate account is possible... but to get some idea.. Are you looking for corporate account+CFD or corporate account+CFD+CO2 in particular? Would check...
Thank you, I checked a few brokers yesterday but wasn't able to find one offering corporate accounts. Something tells me US citizens probably can't set up an offshore account and to trade CFDs, but you've got me curious now. I'll have to contact one of these brokers when I get some time. I've got too much going on at the moment to take on an offshore account, but the idea does have merit.
Self-sufficiency is the greatest of all wealth. - Epicurus
Quoting Ef5
{quote} Thank you, I checked a few brokers yesterday but wasn't able to find one offering corporate accounts. Something tells me US citizens probably can't set up an offshore account and to trade CFDs, but you've got me curious now. I'll have to contact one of these brokers when I get some time. I've got too much going on at the moment to take on an offshore account, but the idea does have merit.
I do not see why US citizens wouldn't be able to set-up off-shore company... and then open trading account by it.. In fact... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...illion-returns

I do not see any reason why not... The question is, would this bring additional edge to you? At trading, I believe that is not the bottleneck of trading since many struggle with profitability.. but at the same time this might give people additional edge since so many are cut off the markets.. CFDs in this case.. Just check my Carbon Trading thread... not much interest, maybe because they can't trade... But before the market(s) mature there are some excellent opportunities... just remember BTC market... it was a joke in the beginning, when sneeze could move the market.. anyones! So some just sneezed and... It was similar to FX itself in the beginning, when big companies could move the market just by converting huge amount of cash.. Ok you got the idea... I woudl recomend you check the market(s)... CFD etc... and if you think/see that you could be profitable... Invest yourself in finding this rather cheap/fast option, totally legal... if you could be profitable... this cost would be negligible..

In fact, I have opposite question for (any of) you! Would there be any benefits in forming company in the US, as EU citizen.. It is possible just atm I do not see ANY benefit for it... Depending on the market... I mean for prop trading at least... Since you also have some good taxes and all... So anyone? Would love to do it but atm haven't found any reason to do so... Well yeah, there is some... Ability to trade with higher leverage but since we can open trading account anywhere in the world already (at the moment at least), there seems to be no added advantage if one is trading with own money... Well at least when SMALLER numbers are in play, I do know about advantages at higher numbers since some brokers/banks are for COMP/CORP/INST... only... But for smaller games... do not see advantages for lets say.. FX, GOLD, OIL at least... Maybe stocks! So anyone? Please do share your insights, would love to be enlightened (no joke)
Can you afford to take that chance?
Quoting auricforecas
The question is, would this bring additional edge to you?
Definitely not. haha

I'm more curious if it's possible than wanting to do it. I've got 4 futures accounts that satisfy my needs as-is.
Self-sufficiency is the greatest of all wealth. - Epicurus
Quoting Ef5
{quote} Definitely not. haha I'm more curious if it's possible than wanting to do it. I've got 4 futures accounts that satisfy my needs as-is.
Have you played with CFDs before or now? I would suggest you try it because there seems to be some epic opportunities and might have different trading "feel" since quite large chunk of the traders are out... Meaning that maybe you will find a edge in CFDs that has been already priced-in in other markets... Just to let you know... BTC market in the beginning was so retarded that a monkey could do it, now many many (pro) players are in it... so it is much harder... Similar to CFDs... I checked CO2 in particular... It is slow af... but it moves rather like a LARGE TANKER.. if you know what I mean.. instead of fighter jet or Cigarette boat, to use the same "vehicle" group

So my suggestion would be, maybe, for you to try the CFDs.. check your skills there.. If it would appear.. that you might have something.. or maybe used something that doesn't work anymore in other (spot etc..) markets... Then maybe you should check the company option to access those CFDs.. I see no barrier atm! Really..
At least if US citizens can still formate company outside of US.. Once that is established... You open CFD account at broker(s) that allow company/corp trading.. which seems to be plenty of them...

Also, I am very interested in formatting US company... (LLC most probably) for the purpose of trading... There are some (non-trading) benefits for this... Business visa, access to certain events, opportunities... Yeah, not directly trading... at least for the markets I am in now... But still... the sooner the better... So the "since" begins to roll
Setting up a company seems rather easy what bothers me is the painful tax reports and not the amount (%) but the risk/exposure one does not report correctly and then would need to pay heavy feet in the best case! Not to mention the more harsher ones...

So therefore, I would be looking for some good company-broker relations that does report top-notch correct report (automatically) so that I do not need to work for it, would just like to be able to TRADE and not worry about anything... So the idea is.. to formate US company, open account at US broker (not for CFD trading), lets say for oil, gold, US... spot... and then just trade.. and the broker would either report volume/profits/loses automatically or issue some "PERFECT" report annually that I just import or upload somewhere? BTW maybe I would trade stocks also, but much less, if any...

What would be your suggestion (from anyone please!)... Delaware seems to be obvious but also been connected/associated with some suspicious things
I would love to be very open, transparent, pay everything, so would love to have everything by the book and as cheaply/automatic as possible... So yeah, Delaware, Florida etc... do provide some good low-cost options but I think NY would seem nice Any thoughts? BTW found some good options in NC... Anyway...
What are your thoughts? Where would be best (tax is not primary concern since there are other places in the world if that would be the issue)... to formate LLC company for the purpose of trading SPOT market(s) in particular... WTI OIL etc... and maybe even some stocks (later)... Anyone?
Can you afford to take that chance?
  • Post #9
  • Quote
  • Edited 2:43pm Oct 13, 2019 1:23pm | Edited 2:43pm
Ok checked a little...

Setting up LLC in NEW YORK (NYC) seem to cost few thousand $.. depending with attorney or not... about 3k with attorney or about half of that without...
Some more info: http://www.nyc.gov/html/sbs/nycbiz/d...egistering.pdf
Not sure exactly what the annual costs then would be... seem "annual fee by state" is the only FIX cost? 9USD for NEW YORK?

For business visa it would require to have like 50k+ USD investment... so the idea being that you would be able to support yourself (with the help of initial investment)... Not sure what the amount would be for setting up markets trading company... I would guess it goes down to business plan and proof of profitability/return...

So that would be it for now.. And yeah, for TRADING (markets) company... FX etc... I might prefer New York (City)..
Because some Delaware etc... might give the wrong impression At least to me.
Also, seems very cheep to maintain in in NY(C)... https://www.llcuniversity.com/llc-annual-fees-by-state/

Benefits of having company set for trading, at least in parallel
Oh and yeah.. Some very nice providers/brokers do not offer PERSONAL accounts.. they only care for corporate/institutional.. they just do not bother with natural person(s)... So it is good to have company on the side, if you want to be THE PLAYER
Can you afford to take that chance?
Quoting auricforecas
{quote} Have you played with CFDs before or now? I would suggest you try it because there seems to be some epic opportunities and might have different trading "feel" since quite large chunk of the traders are out... Meaning that maybe you will find a edge in CFDs that has been already priced-in in other markets... Just to let you know... BTC market in the beginning was so retarded that a monkey could do it, now many many (pro) players are in it... so it is much harder... Similar to CFDs... I checked CO2 in particular... It is slow af... but it moves...
I've not considered CFDs, but I think you're onto something. Market's with lower liquidity should be less efficient and therefore would offer the most opportunity. The risk obviously is that you could get stuck in your investment and you'll probably pay for some slippage on fills.
Quoting auricforecas
Also, I am very interested in formatting US company... (LLC most probably) for the purpose of trading... There are some (non-trading) benefits for this... Business visa, access to certain events, opportunities... Yeah, not directly trading...
Nevada and Wyoming are popular choices for an LLC because there's no state income tax and I believe fees are fairly low.
Quoting auricforecas
For business visa it would require to have like 50k+ USD investment...
I believe you'd need to invest $500K into a company that employs over X number of people.
Self-sufficiency is the greatest of all wealth. - Epicurus
Quoting Ef5
I believe you'd need to invest $500K into a company that employs over X number of people.
Yeah for EB-5 (passive investment) it is 500k/1mio (depending where) For Active one it should be 10% of that... E2 Visa...
But that is not the main focus for me atm (just a side bonus, maybe)... Will see how it goes, as I say.. the focus is "the juice"... all else follows...

About other thing... You are right... opportunities.. I mean, IF I have found it anywhere I surely did so in the "road less traveled"
I mean just check this CO2... not many even know it exists... I can not even write here how retarded BTC trading was at the beginning...
People were trading over the chatroom (and the price moved).. so you got the picture FX (some markets at least) is so attacked with HF bots... that one has to be almost a wizard to make money this days longerm at least Yet there are markets that have HOURS of lags... The idea is to find an edge no one had though of..
I knew a guy that found it.. basically "printed money"... but started to brag.. it went away...

And yeah, know about Delaware etc..... but it comes down to profitability... the less of it... the more doubt of it why should incorporate in US.. for prop trading anyway.. aside of having access to certain things... If there would be heavy money, wouldn't mind to stimulate the US economy with taxes.. in exchange of some perks of having a local presence there (not sure how many for prop trading, but glad to keep an open mind)... hope they are

But the main focus would be what would be additional benefits.. for US citizens it seems to be... access to CFDs... if Forming a Company outside US... But what would be the benefits for non-US citizens to formate company in US for the purpose of (prop) trading? Aside of the potential visa.... At the moment I see just better access to potential info, markets... "feel", networking etc...
Can you afford to take that chance?
Quoting auricforecas
{quote} Yeah for EB-5 (passive investment) it is 500k/1mio (depending where) For Active one it should be 10% of that... E2 Visa... But that is not the main focus for me atm (just a side bonus, maybe)... Will see how it goes, as I say.. the focus is "the juice"... all else follows... About other thing... You are right... opportunities.. I mean, IF I have found it anywhere I surely did so in the "road less traveled" I mean just check this CO2... not many even know it exists... I can not even write here how retarded BTC trading was...
I'd be pretty careful about your tax liability if you incorporate in the US. You could be in a situation where your US LLC is taxed in the US and you still owe taxes in Slovenia. I don't think it would play out that way, but it's something you'd want to verify with a CPA in advance.
Self-sufficiency is the greatest of all wealth. - Epicurus
Quoting Ef5
{quote} I'd be pretty careful about your tax liability if you incorporate in the US. You could be in a situation where your US LLC is taxed in the US and you still owe taxes in Slovenia. I don't think it would play out that way, but it's something you'd want to verify with a CPA in advance.
No problem there, that would be my first focus even before I would start In fact that is the main reason I haven't done it already But would have seriously consider, even for additional taxes.. if there would be any good reason to trade from US, atm, at least for my style of trading.. I do not see any... (aside of potential visa, that I do not look after atm, we already have 90days waiver and also can be extended up to a year with a good reason etc...). So if you see any benefits (for prop trading), let me know... as is maybe the case for US citizens to open non-us company for the purpose of trading CFDs... Well yeah, you have slightly better leverage but we can still open anywhere in the world with even higher one...

Atm, it seems it would be just trowing additional money (taxes) just for the feel of it Formating prop company in US for the purpose of trading... at least for spot trading.. With stocks/instruments etc... there might be much different situation... SPOT (currency) trading is in particular good (tax wise) where I am now, at least for natural person.
Can you afford to take that chance?
Quoting auricforecas
{quote} No problem there, that would be my first focus even before I would start In fact that is the main reason I haven't done it already But would have seriously consider, even for additional taxes.. if there would be any good reason to trade from US, atm, at least for my style of trading.. I do not see any... (aside of potential visa, that I do not look after atm, we already have 90days waiver and also can be extended up to a year with a good reason etc...). So if you see any benefits (for prop trading), let me know... as is maybe...
I can't immediately think of an advantage in forming a US company for the purposes of trading. Foreign nationals can open US brokerage accounts already so there's no need to form a company for US access. The only thing I'm unsure of is how margin trading would work since US brokers may not have much recourse in the event you have a negative balance. (Not that it would ever be a problem with you auricforecas. )
Self-sufficiency is the greatest of all wealth. - Epicurus
  • Post #15
  • Quote
  • Edited 7:20pm Oct 14, 2019 7:08pm | Edited 7:20pm
Quoting Ef5
{quote} I can't immediately think of an advantage in forming a US company for the purposes of trading. Foreign nationals can open US brokerage accounts already so there's no need to form a company for US access. The only thing I'm unsure of is how margin trading would work since US brokers may not have much recourse in the event you have a negative balance. (Not that it would ever be a problem with you auricforecas. )
Well I tell you in the case of OANDA (U.S. Division)... They have very robust margin call = stop out... that closes at 50% margin... I think their protection, of any broker, would be in stop-out The lowest that I did find was 15% (stop-out, for some FX) anyway... at least from somewhat trustable ones... so they have quite a buffer before it would go to negative... Well then maybe I should stick to original design... building enough money with SPOT trading so to be able to move it to stocks/bonds, but still keep trading in SPOT of course... where US (comp) might have an edge, taxes wise But if you find some additional edge, do not hesitate to contact us.. Well, not sure how easy is for us to open US broker account.. I have what I have, old ones... might have some problems now... I know that some broker directed me to EU division before, but gladlyI already had US account but If I would close it... But anyway... sticking to juice... but I would really love to open a company in US, seems so attractive, to have some presence there... not for FULL TRADING, just some on the side at least... and swallowing the taxes... Thinks are very dynamic this days... one regulation and situation might completely change... This 30:1 leverage limit in EU shocked me enormously... we had UNLIMITED one before! Imagine that... Only one broker noticed me in advance... when I checked at others they said like "not that we know off" and then BAM, basically overnight... So far we can still find some reroute... legally of course..
Heard AU is tightening the leverage... but don't knot the latest details... So just one more step needed, for example.. BAN for EU citizens to trade outside EU brokers.. and we would be FORCED to formate company in the US for the purpose of high(er than 30:1) leverage trading Or around the world... but I would prefer to stick to the EU/US... for now at least

And regarding the negative balance... I also play with "burners" on the side... if you noticed... So I rely on brokers to stop-it in time But I haven't been in negative, haven't opened an account (or did open, ONE, in AU) but haven't deposited.. because I want to be "neg balance protected" just in case.. jurisdiction or not... I would not bet on them not be able to get the money

A little funny story.... you know why I love spot markets.. because there are almost impossible to cheat...Where in stocks... I would have stock-watch on my ass.. Funny, sometimes I predict "too good"... So I do not want to deal with those situations also BTW true story... I know a guy that found a model to predict some stocks.. won't even mention the industry, but you can guess... when he was too afraid to trade by it because he might be a suspect if something happens and he would be in trade... Some industries are just like that... there is a chance if someone would get too much.. he might know something.... so why bother with those...
That is why I love eurusd, oil, gold.. where this would be almost impossible... So turned off by that atm.. but once I might move (in parallel) to those markets.. I would prefer to publicly announce my trades in advance hehe... You know there is a protocol, if someone is too much of a outlier... he must cheat or at least worth of review Not saying that is a bad protocol but just saying... I prefer to trade freely.. in markets I mention.. you can do whatever, noone cares... not to mention BTC... BTW I actually wonder what is the amount when you become of interest even at those markets I mean if one makes like factor x10k+ (on deposit) or something.. Ok that is another topic
Can you afford to take that chance?
Quoting auricforecas
{quote} Well I tell you in the case of OANDA (U.S. Division)... They have very robust margin call = stop out... that closes at 50% margin... I think their protection, of any broker, would be in stop-out
It works differently for non-forex brokers in the US. The last margin call I got was in 2009 and it was a literal call from my broker saying I needed to deposit more money within 3 business days or they'd close my positions.

Quoting auricforecas
So just one more step needed, for example.. BAN for EU citizens to trade outside EU brokers.. and we would be FORCED to formate company in the US for the purpose of high(er than 30:1) leverage trading Or around the world... but I would prefer to stick to the EU/US... for now at least And regarding the negative balance... I also play with "burners" on the side... if you noticed... So I rely on brokers to stop-it in time But I haven't been in negative, haven't opened an account (or did open, ONE, in AU) but haven't deposited.....
I sure hope that doesn't happen.

If you want more leverage you might consider trading options too. Granted they're not really levered, but its similar since they're so volatile.
Self-sufficiency is the greatest of all wealth. - Epicurus
Quoting auricforecas
Where in stocks... I would have stock-watch on my ass.. Funny, sometimes I predict "too good"... So I do not want to deal with those situations also BTW true story... I know a guy that found a model to predict some stocks.. won't even mention the industry, but you can guess... when he was too afraid to trade by it because he might be a suspect if something happens and he would be in trade... Some industries are just like that... there is a chance if someone would get too much.. he might know something.... so why bother with those... That...
I've never known anyone to be contacted by the SEC. I think they look for things like a big options position put on right before favorable earnings.
Self-sufficiency is the greatest of all wealth. - Epicurus
Quoting Ef5
{quote} It works differently for non-forex brokers in the US. The last margin call I got was in 2009 and it was a literal call from my broker saying I needed to deposit more money within 3 business days or they'd close my positions.
Spooky Tnx for letting me know.

Quoting Ef5
If you want more leverage you might consider trading options too. Granted they're not really levered, but its similar since they're so volatile.
Well currently I am set, tnx to "world" options, still, wonder how long that might last... EU is scratching head how to restrict, regulate... Current headlines are about crypto regulation in EU... how that will get them busy for sometime... before they start to mess with other markets (again)...

But yeah, now I will focus on "the juice" and derive optimal leverage, strategy from it... Oh yeah, I see one advantage... at certain (very high) level.. there might be good advantages... since some brokers/bank accept only corp/inst... but that is far ahead And also one can negotiate a good interbank deal etc...
BTW... atm I have reduced my leverage strategies for WTI OIL and GOLD... due to longer term strategy/system goals... So we will see... But I sure like to burn on the side Sometimes there are just epic opportunities, will see how repeatable they will appear to be.. Specially after this Halloween... I suspect some good changes in markets... FED is preparing a good party for us, I suspect... ECB can't wait for copy, even if much later But the last time they couldn't wait to have an excuse
Can you afford to take that chance?
Ok, found out that there might be some advantages formatting in US... Would love to have it in NY(C) but must admit, Delaware have some very attractive options, can not highlight them (the ones I am interested the most), for certain reasons... but seems nice.. At the moment, due to our country no-tax for SPOT (currency) market, for natural persons.. There might be other reasons to formate a company for tax reasons however.. But if I will move from SPOT to other markets... then TAXes are rather heavy in our country and forming a company might be a good idea, might be even in US... There still are some benefits for this... So will keep you posted, if anyone is interested? Either for US incorporating in EU or the other way arround?
Can you afford to take that chance?
Quoting auricforecas
Ok, found out that there might be some advantages formatting in US... Would love to have it in NY(C) but must admit, Delaware have some very attractive options, can not highlight them (the ones I am interested the most), for certain reasons... but seems nice.. At the moment, due to our country no-tax for SPOT (currency) market, for natural persons.. There might be other reasons to formate a company for tax reasons however.. But if I will move from SPOT to other markets... then TAXes are rather heavy in our country and forming a company might be...
Definitely keep me posted!

I probably wouldn't incorporate in NYC. There's been an exodus in finance lately for places like South Florida. Icahn, PTJ, and Tepper have all relocated there, among many other companies.
Self-sufficiency is the greatest of all wealth. - Epicurus
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